more than in 9/11

less than a year now less than a year now less than a year now

bye bye little bush

Anyone that thinks Obama or Hillary will have us out of Iraq in their term(s) is in for a big disappointment. Just listen to their words carefully and you'll get the truth. We are in Iraq for the long haul. Just like we are in Korea, Germany etc.

I just weep at the loss of so many young lives. Have we learned nothing since the second world war?
This won't be over for some time and the gains may only be transient.
My heart goes out to the family's who have lost their loved ones.

Historically speaking the Iraq war hasn't been nearly as costly in lives as most others we have fought. This war is being used as a political weapon and most politicians really don't care about the personal costs it has inflicted. It is just another tool they can use to get votes. Like I said, listen carefully to Hillary's and Obama's words. You will find they are giving themselves outs in everything they say about the matter.

The USA is in Iraq for decades and even the Iraqis want us there for decades. Iraq is our new Korea, Germany, Japan etc. The deaths will decrease over time to none and then the whole issue will be forgotten. I don't see anyone saying we should get our troops out of South Korea. Iraq is quickly becoming the same situation.

Even now, the effectiveness of the surge has almost taken the whole issue of Iraq off the political stage. For the most part it only matters to the far left and in the general election I wouldn't be surprised if their position of calling for a pullout in 2007 will hurt them. They are going to be labeled as those who wanted to "cut and run" and that won't play well with the majority of Americans. This will especially be the case is the surge continues to be successful as the general election gets closer. John McCain is going to hoist either Hillary or Obama on their own petard this fall on the war issue. Don't be fooled. Americans like winning wars far more than running from them and admitting defeat.

Free police force to the iraqi's
Cheap petrol for the USA.

I do not think it is cheap petrol for the USA it really about keeping Iraqs oil off the market as long as possible so little bush and his friends can make more money on their oil.

It's about creating a political fire break between Iran and Saudi Arabia. This was the reason we armed Saddam in the first place and before that supported the Shaw in Iran. The biggest disaster possible for the Western world is to have Saudi Arabia fall into the hands of radical Islamics. Saddam screwed up when he took over Kuwait. If he hadn't done that he would still be in power and being supplied with American arms.

Sorry, it's not free. It's just not financed by the Iraqi government. Unfortunately the funds are coming out of my and every other tax-paying American citizens' pockets.

You call a 260% rise since 1996 in the cost of petroleum based products "cheap."

I work in a petroleum based product industry and it's taken the particular plant I work at profits from around $60m a year to $18m. In that it has also taken a chunk out of my profit in that the bonuses I and my co-workers get are maybe half of what they were.

The entire U.S. economy runs off the price of crude oil. With record prices even adjusted for inflation it is putting a major strain on the average American citizen compared to what it was before the war. So you're telling me the war is a good thing for us financially?

inflation we have no inflation just look at the figures little bush people put out each month. They have not checked the prices at wal-mart on anywhere else they just put out what little bush tells them.

UTR, I must commend you for being so well-informed and putting things in the proper perspective. Certainly neither Obama nor Hillary would have the right answer, as listening to both of them might best be compared to "fluff"--especially Obama. He talks about "change" and such, but he only delivers words without support and claims without facts (concrete details as to how to do the things he espouses).

To hear the troops that are interviewed, I've yet to hear anything but "we're doing a good job here" (in Iraq) or "we need to make sure we do the job right, so coming back won't be necessary." I admire their courage, and it's really sad to see far too many politicians not supporting the troops. If they don't like the war, fine--but don't shortchange the men/women serving by stalling funding they need, etc. Do what you can to shorten the necessity of staying there, and do what is possible to make it so. In the meantime, quit sniping American troops in overt public speeches.

Somehow the U.S. being in Iraq makes oil cheaper? Hm. Then why is oil almost $100/barrel and why are prices so high (as jtalisman pointed out) if somehow there's more supply now to make it 'cheap' for the US? That assertion doesn't hold water, nor is it supported by the facts. That assertion also assumes somehow the President has unlimited power. The only areas in which I can think of where the President has the final say-so is with vetoing a bill (although that can be overriden by 2/3 majority) and to the degree the President could wage war anywhere for 90 days w/o Congress' approval. Other than that, to assert the President can single-handledly make his "buddies" rich ignores the system of checks and balances in place to prevent that. People also mistakenly assume the president can somehow control the price of gasoline; however, that's controlled by OPEC and supply/demand.

I'm just glad Thomas Sowell isn't here to read stuff like this, or he'd whip out another book in short order--if he hasn't already debunked things like this in his most recent ones. Yeesh.

See above.

IMO, the entire war was about 'lil Bush wanting to finish what his daddy started and failed at (miserably I might at). Nothing more, nothing less. Threats of WMDs in Iraq were only the means to begin in a time where the country was still literally terrified of terrorists. He took advantage of that vulnarebility to lie to us and get what he wanted.

All Clinton and Obama are doing is giving lip service to the anti-war left in the Democratic Party to get their votes in the primary elections. Watch where they go when one of them is trying to get elected this fall in a general election. It will be a whole different line they be trying to feed us. Personally, I don't think either of them is a lock to win in November. It looks like McCain will be the Republican nominee and he will carve them up like a Thanksgiving turkey on Iraq. Especially if the surge keeps working and violence continues to subside there.

I have a personal stake in this area in that I have a niece and nephew in the military that did tours in Iraq last year. My nephew is a Marine and was stationed in the Sunni Triangle near the Syrian border. Basically, about the worst place you could be.

His personal experience is nothing like we hear from the press. He said there was great improvements in security in the area his group patrolled. Economic activity went up 700% while they were there and civilian and military deaths were a fraction of what they were in the beginning. He said the average Iraqi is really no different than an average American. They want to go to work, come home to their family and go shopping in peace. They don't hate Americans and most are very appreciative of what we have done. He also said he was impressed with how the Iraqi men would line up to join the police force knowing they would be in great danger. According to him they are actually doing a decent job under the conditions.

When he saw the coverage the media was giving Iraq last fall when he returned he was disgusted with it. It was far from representing what was going on in reality there. He said most of his Marine Corp buddies feel the same way. You are right, all they want to to do is finish the job we sent them there to do. They don't deserve the back handed compliments they get from the media and anti-war politicians. If we let the military do what the need to do to accomplish the mission and give them the support to do it then the mission will be accomplished there. The surge is a good example of this policy in action.

This is a real simplistic view of the situation. There is much more going on here than revenge. Did you forget the vote Congress made authorizing the use of force by the President? How about the United Nations resolution authorizing the use of force? This wasn't a unilateral action by Bush. It was even backed by Hillary Clinton for God's sake.

As for lies, everyone had the same information to make their judgments on. It is just convenient now to use the "I was lied to" defense by politicians trying to get elected by getting anti-war votes. The fact is that Saddam bluffed about having WMDs and he paid the price for it. Had he come clean he would still be sitting in his palace in Baghdad instead of currently taking a dirt nap with his two sons.

I'm sorry, but if you are staking lives on this decision you must have the right information and intelligence to back it up. He, and his advisors as well, did not do their jobs properly and still made the decison that he did and our couragous men and women that are involved are paying the ultimate price for a war that we should have never started. This is a mistake that will never end and has set back our country mentally, physically, and financially.

And why can we send a freaking Beatles song into space somewhere that it won't reach for 431 years and we still have yet to find Bin Laden?

If there ever was a post that should be closed this is one the problem is that we all have strong feelings on this.

Gosh... people die in a war?

Never knew that...

The funny thing about history is it is hard to tell what decisions were a mistake and which ones were ultimately a success. The reason for this is we don't have the luxury of knowing the outcome of the multitude of other choices that could have been made. For all we know delaying, or preventing, the invasion of Iraq could have caused a far worse outcome than currently exists.

It is like saying the Korean and Vietnam wars were mistakes. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. Just maybe fighting those wars prevented the expansion of the Soviet Union to the point there would be a direct conflict between them and us resulting in an exchange of nukes. If that were the outcome of not fighting them then we made the right decision, IMO. Just maybe us being in Iraq has blunted the Iranians from getting nukes and eventually causing an exchange between them and Israel. If this were true then I would say our sacrifice was well worth it.

Here is the other point I want to make. You seem to think your view about the sacrifices of our military being in vain is the right one. It isn't. I have family members in the military right now that have done tours in Iraq. They joined the military AFTER 9-11 and knew full well they would likely be in harms way. They gladly, and proudly, put their lives on the line to be in Iraq and want to accomplish their mission there. In fact, they both want to go back before they leave the military to help further in getting the mission done. All they want is the support of this country to make that happen. They definitely don't want to leave admitting defeat. To them, that would truly make their sacrifices in vain.

Most of these anti-war people are also anti-military (even though the claim otherwise) and are doing nothing but trying to destroy their moral. If you don't believe me then look at the MoveOn.org advertisement about General Petraeus being labeled as "General Betrayus". This is just one example. He is as much a member of our military as any private and deserves the same respect. Don't think you speak for the military when giving your views or are acting in what THEY consider to be their best interests.

It is the same reason the Moon is better explored than the deep ocean floor. Just because something is located on the planet doesn't make it easy to reach or survey. Bin Laden is in a part of the world that is extremely hostile from an environmental perspective. Whether he is caught or not his effectiveness as a terrorist is over. I wouldn't want to be living his life right now. Would you?