MUST READ BEFORE POSTING...Forum posting guidelines

[OC-Freak]

Welcome to the DVD- media testing forum!

What's this about?
We have an idea of creating a database of media tests that you can peruse and search, that is based on the media manufacturer and ADIP. This means that the structure of each thread and post must be consistant and accessable by the search function, so that users can find what they're looking for.
This will require a lot of moderating by myself and rdgrimes to ensure that it works as advertised. Please do not be offended if your post is edited, moved, or even deleted, it is done in the spirit of making this work really well.

Guidelines for posting media tests:

1) There will be threads for each media manufacturer, TY, RiTEK, CMC, etc they will also be split up in format and type (one for DVD+R, one for DVD+RW one for DVD-R one for DVD-RW for each manufacturer). Before posting, you must have your media's ADIP information, and post in the appropriate thread for that media maker. If there is no thread for that maker, create one! Posting by the media brand, (Fuji, Memorex, etc.), will not be permitted in the media test forums, but may be discussed in the main media forum. Post only one test per post please! Testing should preferrably be done in the same drive your media was burned in.
2) The subject of your post must include the media maker and the media maker's speed rating and the speed it was burned at.
3) The first line in the post must include the drive model used for burning, and firmware version. Also the size of the burn in Mb or Gb.
4) Next you should post the ADIP: Look below for a guide on this
5) Now you should include which brand the discs is sold under and which manufacturer the discs comes from (for searching purposes), follow this with any relevant information like whether the discs is unreadable in some players etc
6) Finally post an image of the error scan if possible. In order to keep the size of the image to a minumum, we strongly sufggest saving it in ".png" or ".gif" format. You must have have a web host that allows linking for image posting to function, attaching the image file to your post will also work. If you are not able to post and link an image, you can contact me or rdgrimes about keeping your image on our server. Posts that have broken image links will be deleted.

Note: Posts that have insufficient information may be deleted


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How to scan DVD-discs in K-Probe?

First you should download K-Probe. See the main media forum for the Kprobe thread.

When starting up K-Probe you will first get this window:



The test we are looking for is under the Write Strategy tab as shown in this window:



We have marked the most interesting things here:

1: Select your Lite-On DVD-Drive from the Dropdown menu.

2: To make results that could best be compared to the standards for error amount on DVDR discs you should:

-Disable realtime chart (program uses less CPU power and thus gives more correct results)
-Set the reading speed to read at CLV, notice that only Lite-On DVD-Writers responds to the speed commands and thus we do not recommend using Lite-On DVD-ROM’s or Lite-On combo drives.

This is the speeds with a Lite-On DVD-Writers when choosing different speeds in the program:

When the program is set to Max or 6X and higher: 6X CAV.
When the program is set to 4X or 5X: 4X CLV for all DVDR discs.
When the program is set to 3X: 2.4X for DVD+R/RW and 2X for DVD-R/RW
When the program is set to 2X: 1X for DVD+R/RW and 2X for DVD-R/RW
When the program is set to 1X: !X for all DVDR discs.

Also notice that speed setting do not work when scanning original pressed DVD discs!

Set the PI/PO Sum to 8 ECC, this is to make the result easier to compare to the ECMA 337/338 standard for DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW where the specifications states that there should not be more than 280 PI errors per 8 ECC blocks.

3: Here you will find:

- A button to print the result.
- A button to export the result to a file, remember to choose to save both charts when scanning a DVD disc. And this brings up the following save dialogue:



Type in a filename. We also recommend that you choose to export the file in the PNG file format as this will give a small file of 15-20k but still with good quality. This also makes it easy for you to attach the image when posting at our forum as the file size is below the limit on the forum.
- The options button:



Here you may change the colours of the graphs. Another useful option is if one of your scans contains a large spike you may adjust the Y-axis to improve the viewability of the result. We suggest that you do not adjust any other settings here.
- We do also find the start and stop buttons to start or stop the scanning process.

That’s it! But look below for how to formulate the post!

You should also include the media manufacturer information. Download DVD-Identifier from http://DVD.Identifier.cdfreaks.com

DVD Identifier:




DVD identifier is very easy to use:

-Select the drive you want to use from the dropdown menu at the top (with the DVD media inserted, or insert it before continuing to the next point)
-Click the identify button.
-Click the clipboard button and paste the information into your post.
-Click the ‘Media Code’-Block button
-Copy and paste the upper 4 lines of this code into your post (Those shown with black background).

You should also include in the post what PI/PO Sum setting you used and what speed you scanned at. (Yes, not everybody is following our guidelines L ). Feel free to add other comments that you think is important, such as readability of the disc etc.


Since you may not have a Lite-On DVD reader available for scanning the discs we accept that you include all the other information and write a report on how the media works for you (to be included: Do it write at certified speed? Do it/Do it not work in the tested DVD players (include brand and model).

Notice that DVD-media scans made by different drive types can't be compared!!! This means that scans made by a DVD-ROM can't be compared to scans made by a combo drive or DVD-Writer.

Next I will post an example of how these posts need to be formatted.

[OC-Freak]

Memorex Dual-X, F/W 1.07, 4.38Gb data.

                            Media Information                            
Region information                                    N/A not a DVD-VIDEO
Media code/Manufacturer ID                                    YUDEN000T01
Format Capacity                                                     Blank
Free Blocks                                                     405405696
Free Capacity                                              4.38GB(4.70GB)
Book Type                                                           DVD+R
Media Type                                                          DVD+R
Media Id Code Speed                                         4.0x 5540KBps
Available Write Descriptor                           CLV  8.0x  11080KBps
Available Write Descriptor                           CLV  4.0x   5540KBps
Available Write Descriptor                           CLV  2.4x   3324KBps
Linear Density                                                 Blank Disc
Track Density                                                     Unknown
Number of Layers                                                        1

Full media code:

00000000 01 02 00 00 A1 0F 02 00 00 03 00 00 00 26 05 3F .............&.?
00000010 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 59 55 44 45 4E 30 30 30 54 .......YUDEN000T
00000020 30 31 00 38 23 54 37 10 02 4E 72 02 9C 63 16 16 01.8#T7..Nr..c..
00000030 0B 0B 0A 0A 01 19 1B 0B 0B 0E 0F 01 00 00 00 00 ................

These discs is sold as Verbatim Datalifeplus 4X DVD+R and is manufactured by Taiyo Yuden. Taiyo Yuden is as always outstanding discs. Scanned at 4X CLV, with a PI/PO sum of 8 ECC.

[dhc014]

Would it be a good idea to use the [code] tags for around the parts copied from DVDInfoPro?

[rdgrimes]

It won't really matter to the search engine if you do or don't. I feel it's easier to read without the tags, but that's just me. As long as you stick to the format, do whatever makes you feel good.

Subject: media maker, rated speed, burn speed
1) drive model, firmware, burn size
2) ADIP info
3) comments
4) scan results

Note: when opening a new thread, you have to go back in and change the post subject after setting the thread subject, so that it states the speeds.

[petspeed]

I don't quite understand what PI/PO errors are. Are they equal to C1/C2 errors on a CD? What are the amount of acceptable PI/PO errors? Does OC-Freaks post show a good or a bad burn?

Thank you.

[OC-Freak]

It's all very new, so I'm not really into the technical details of PI and PO errors, but it seems like there will always be both PI and PO errors on a DVD-disc.

I've now updated my example post to reflect how a good written disc should look like. Very few writers/discs is able to give back such good results as the one in the example post.

Still notice that different readers gives different results!!! DVD-ROM scans can't be compared to DVD-Writer scans and Combo drive scans!!

[OC-Freak]

From the ECMA 267 standard ("120 mm DVD - Read-Only Disk") in the ECC part it states:

ECMA 267 standard states:

"A row of an ECC Block (see clause 18) that has at least 1 byte in error constitutes a PI error. In any 8
consecutive ECC Blocks the total number of PI errors before correction shall not exceed 280."

This means if you set the PI/PO sum to 8 ECC and there is more than 280 PI errors in a block the disc exceeeds the strandard. So if there is a spike tha is over 280 PI you have a disc which is outside the specifications.

Notice that All my scans is set to 1 ECC PI/PO sum.

This is how a PI error is defined:

ECMA 267 standard states:

A row of an ECC Block (see clause 18 ) that has at least 1 byte in error constitutes a PI error.

And the best thing is: get the ECMA 267 standards here: http://www.ecma-international.org/pu...s/Ecma-267.htm

If anyone more technical experienced people than me is out there: Correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to add additional information.

[JudasPriest]

We're doing a bit of confusion.
I think that a K-probe scan with 401s cannot be compared whit 411s and even different firmwares of both 401 and 411 can give really different result. It seems that last 411 fw (FS0F) gives much more reading errors that previous ones!
More: A 2x burned disc should be scanned at 2 or 4x.
I have burned some maxell in my 411s that scanned at 4x are relly bad, at 2x are acceptable.
Someone should try to scan the same disc with both 401 and 411 and then again with different firmwares to give such a scale to c

I've just upgraded to FS0F. If anyone can tell me where to find old 411s fws i can try different fws scans.

[OC-Freak]

1: Different results with different firmwares.

The amount of errors is the same with LDW-401S ES0G and LDW-411S firmware FS02 and FS07. = No difference between drives.

But with firmware FS0B and FS0F for the LDW-411S the amount of reported errors is higher on some discs (but not all!!) but still there is not a dramatic difference and still a good disc could be distinguished from a bad disc.

Worst difference in % I've had is with TY 4X DVD+R:

FW FS07: 0.390 PI average
FW FS0F: 5.0 PI average

PO is the same.

So yes there is a difference, but no it's not bad enough to mess up the results.

On the other hand FS0F and FS0B reports less errors with REALLY bad discs compared to the other firmware versions!!! But still the difference is not great enough to make any problems.

Yes we know that some discs prefers to be scanned at the speed they were written at, but I've yet to see a REALLY big difference....

REALLY big = more than 100 PI average in difference. But that may be just luck

[JudasPriest]

Ok with 401 - 411 and firmware differencies.

But for the scan speed have a look at my maxell DVD-R scans.
(just uploaded)

4x scan: PI MAX:1379, average 824; PO max 623, av 55
A Coaster according to what you wrote:

Good: Below 50 PI average and MAX not over 100 PI. PO max less than 10.
ok: Below 100 PI average and MAX not over 280 PI. PO max less than 20.
bad: PI max over 300 and PO max over 32.
Crap: PI max over 900 and PO max over 100

2x scan: PI max 244, av 95; PO max 14, av 1.12
So this is "Ok"

Moreover in my Pioneer dvd reader (DVD-105) ther's no difference at all in nero CD/DVD speed between this Maxell and a Ricoh (bundled) with 2.1 average PI: both never slow down and are read at full CAV (2,5-6x).
Another thing and I promise I give you in peace:
Is there any test about DVD-burner power connector and ide cable/channel?
(Read about having a not shared PW connector and secmaster)
- now I have it pw shared ad primary slave -

[OC-Freak]

First this is probably a hong-kong made DVD-R disc with fake Maxell ID as a real maxell discs usually performs much better.

Personally I've not seen such a great difference in reported errors.

After all the standards for PI/PO errors is probably when scanning at 1X and so you may say that the disc is ok.....

On the other hand I've yet to see this behaviour from really good or really bad discs - so it's probably a problem with "marginal" quality discs.

I suspect that this may be caused by tracking errors as well, so lowering the read speed may make it easier to correctly follow the track and thus less errors is reported.

That is how far my thinking goes.......

[tony22]

OC-Freak, I've been trying to post results for some of my DVD burns, but I cannot get either a JPG or PNG of the KProbe display to post using the Browse/Attach method when using the post editor. When I select Preview it looks like the image is uploading, but it never shows up in any preview where I've tried to add an image (the images are less than 30KB). Using the url method is not the best way for me, so I'd really like to figure out why my Attaches are not succeeding.

[rdgrimes]

You cannot see an attached image in either preview or reply modes. You have to go ahead and attach the image then look at the actual post to see it.

[tony22]

D'oh! I'll give it a try. Thanks!

[Luggage7a]

So is it allowed to report possible double scans?

or are only discs with same media ID, burned on the same drive model with same firmware considered doubles?

[rdgrimes]

Originally posted by Luggage7a
So is it allowed to report possible double scans?

or are only discs with same media ID, burned on the same drive model with same firmware considered doubles?

Use your judgement, if someone else has posted a virtually identical scan as yours, why post it again?

[Wesociety]

OC-Freak/rdgrimes, with the release of Kprobe2 and default settings of PI ECC sum 8 / PI ECC sum 1 are you going to continue to recommend (for standardization sake) a sum of 8 ECC for both PI and PO even when scanning with Kprobe2?

[rdgrimes]

Originally posted by wesociety
OC-Freak/rdgrimes, with the release of Kprobe2 and default settings of PI ECC sum 8 / PI ECC sum 1 are you going to continue to recommend (for standardization sake) a sum of 8 ECC for both PI and PO even when scanning with Kprobe2?

No, just be aware that they are different. As long as the settings are reported in the saved graph, it's up to the reader to interpret.

[Wesociety]

Originally posted by rdgrimes
No, just be aware that they are different. As long as the settings are reported in the saved graph, it's up to the reader to interpret.

Oh well... I thought it might help to standardize since we already have this nice database of Kprobe scans. The varying settings will definitely confuse some people...

[code65536]

Originally posted by wesociety
Oh well... I thought it might help to standardize since we already have this nice database of Kprobe scans. The varying settings will definitely confuse some people...

But the alternative would be to perpetuate the use of the wrong PO sum...

[rdgrimes]

Actually, it's only correct for scanning at 1x.

PO has, for the most part, not been much of an issue. Although it is a pretty reliable indicator of a coaster when it's high.
AS always, all are free to scan as they like. We offer suggestions, but require only that you disclose your methods.

[code65536]

Originally posted by rdgrimes
Actually, it's only correct for scanning at 1x.

PO has, for the most part, not been much of an issue. Although it is a pretty reliable indicator of a coaster when it's high.
AS always, all are free to scan as they like. We offer suggestions, but require only that you disclose your methods.

Hehe. You're right. I guess the whole 4x thing already changed things a lot.

[MrWGT]

Hi...

Nero CD-DVD Speed now supports PI/PO scanning for e.g. my Benq DW800@DW822. Is it possible (or allowed) to use the Nero CD-DVD Speed graphs instead of e.g. the graphs of my LiteOn 165 DVD-ROM reader with kprobe?

Kind regards,

Gerd Mitländer

[rdgrimes]

Originally Posted by MrWGT

Hi...

Nero CD-DVD Speed now supports PI/PO scanning for e.g. my Benq DW800@DW822. Is it possible (or allowed) to use the Nero CD-DVD Speed graphs instead of e.g. the graphs of my LiteOn 165 DVD-ROM reader with kprobe?

Kind regards,

Gerd Mitländer

Sure, no problem.

[Eiji]

Are DVDInfoPro Read Error Scans allowed?

I don't have a LiteOn drive.