Re: Clone DVD 2.8.5.1

Technically, I understand how dual layer works. What I am trying to fathom is how CloneDVD does it.

If I backup up a movie with menus and CloneDVD says it found the layer break and choose DVD-DL, where does CloneDVD put the layer break. For example, does it strategize and try to place it at the beginning or end of a chapter? Also, does the user have any control over this selection of layer break placement?

Thanks,

Gary

I do not know the absolute answer to your question, but it seems that the layer break is removed... per the Features listed under CloneDVD. That being said, Im pretty sure I still notice when the transition occurs (i pick up on the slight delay). I dont always see or notice it... but every now and then I will. I have never used this, but some use IFOedit to trim down the "pause" that is caused in the backup

Features
Copies the main movie, special features and/or the original menu onto DVD recordable media or your hard-disk
Newly improved transcoder: Better picture quality at high reduction rates (footage of more than two hours)
Impressive speed at high reduction rates
Video Preview shows an overview of all selectable DVD titles
Include or exclude the original menu
Visual quality control through quality bars during the title and language selection
Target size freely adjustable
Chapter trimming/splitting available
Very easy to use: Our unique Filmstrip assistant will guide you step-by-step through all settings - easy for beginners
Preferences: Memorizes the last settings that were used and uses those settings in future sessions
Layer break flag removal possible
Picture snapshots while transcoding and remixing
Real-time bitrate and frame statistics while transcoding
Logging window available
Preview the movie during transcoding and writing
Works with most DVD player hardware and software
Works with DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW media
Stable, fast and does require an ASPI driver

Any professional who is responsible for the design of a commercial DVD is going to try and place the layer break in a way that will minimize any annoying distraction while watching the movie. End of a chapter, or scene within a chapter, would be ideal for a layer break. It would be great if this was a parameter given to CloneDVD2.

I am getting the feeling that the placement of layer breaks on DL media is done automatically without concern for the content or impact to the viewer of the resultant DVD created.

i agree that clonedvd needs improved handling of layer breaks, but CloneDVD is a relatively simple "one-click" program (ok it might take 3 or 4 clicks, but you get the point). if you want that degree of control you should be using something like ifoedit to manually place the break.

as far as i know with software that's out now, dvd decrypter in ISO > READ then (either decrypter or ImgBurn) in ISO > WRITE mode is the only way to retain the original layer break when ripping the disc and transferring that original to your backup (via the .mds file that is created)

reasonsnotrules,

Good info on a straight copy retaining the existing layer break. However, I am trying to throw away the original layer break and some titles using VOB Blanker. When I finish, the DVD is going to have less stuff but it will be over one layer in size. Therefore, I wish to write it out and roughly pick where I want the layer break.

After the Decryption and VOB Blanker phases are done, then I would input my trimmed movie to CloneDVD2 and select DVD+R DL and create an ISO file. CloneDVD2 always removes the original Layer break information, if it exists. So, what is on that ISO file after CloneDVD2 creates it? Does it have a newly generated Layer break inserted by CloneDVD2 or is it just one long string of data where the layer Break would be inserted by the writing program: Nero, Copy2DVD, or Decrypter?

i've honestly never burned DL media with clonedvd so the question never came to mind.

that's a good question to shoot to their support team. (support at elby dot ch ...obviously replace "at" and "dot")

the general accepted method of DL burning is DVD Decrypter and ImgBurn and I've had good results with those programs.

I know an improved DL burning engine is on their to do list. He once posted some things that they were looking into for a future clonedvd release, but until then I stick with my old methods.

I'm nto sure how clonedvd handles the layer break, and I'm not familiar with ways to author your own layer break as I make full 1:1 copies when I use dual layered media so I never thought about what would happen if i cut a ton of stuff out.

I believe that when you go to burn the DVD DL media, if you can change the booktype of the media being read for example dvd +r DL you can change it to write to the dvd so that it will recognize it as a DVD-Rom which will make everything look identical and also make stand alone units see this as an original copy and it will put the break in the same spot as it was on the original DVD and you will never notice it....Unfortunately for some reason with my brother-n-laws, and my Clonedvd 2 we were not able to get the booktype to change for us but using the ImgBurn we were able to get the booktype to change and when playing in DVD stand alone units there are no noticeable breaks just like if it were the original...

he's talking about manually setting a layer break not any sort of player incompatibility due to booktyping issues, I'm not sure where you're going with the above post or how it related to this thread...

Regards BOOKTYPE. I believe that every DL meda, including DVD-R DL and DVD+R DL, has a Booktype of DVD-ROM by default!

If you are doing a straight backup of a DL DVD and do not want to remove and content, I believe that the layer break is buried in the decrypted files on the hard drive. Therefore, you can just use Decrypter to read the ISO and write back the ISO file. And the layer break will be copied in tact.

However, if you want to delete stuff, like ads for movies that they stick in front of the movie you paid to watch, then you will lose the existing layer break because that's what DVDSHINK, CLONEDVD2, DVD2ONE, RECODE, and the rest do. They strip off the layer break before they process anything.

EXAMPLE:

(1) Decrypt a movie with titles to the hard drive.
(2) Setup CLONEDVD2 using a custom size of 9GB output to disable compression.
(3) Cloned the whole movie by writing to destination folder.

What would be the difference between the input and the output folders?

I would say they would be identical except for the layer break being removed in the destination folder.


If I'm correct, then I would have a nice clean copy of the movie and have a chance to place a new layer break. Based on some additional reading, a program like COPY2DVD could easily generate a new layer break, automatically. In addition, two programs:

(a) IFOEDIT
(b) PGCEDIT

are both capable of allowing the user to take the clean, layer break free, movie and manually place the layer break where you want.

http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgced...th_pgcedit.htm


Also, for an explanation of the technical aspects of where to place a layer break and the rules governing its mechanics, check this out:

http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/...breakpoint.cfm

The world is waiting for the first one-click backup (eg. CLONEDVD2) that does the placement intelligently at strategically smart places like end of a chapter or title.

I'm not sure we'll ever see this. I think at best, we can expect an option to "keep existing layer break" or "remove layer break so I can set it myself using another program"

I think the ideal solution would be to integrate the ability to access third party programs into the 1-click software. the same way shrink allows to you automatically burn using nero or ImgBurn or whatever, it would be cool if clonedvd removed the layer break and automatically loaded up IfoEdit so you could decide what you wanted to do with it.

Part of the reason CloneDvd is so successful, I think it because of its simplicity. Start adding too many options to it and people will become intimidated by it.

Those links you posted about layer break info looked interesting. I'll have to look into it as I certainly don't know as much as I'd like to on the subject.

here's a thought though...you were wondering if clonedvd actually does deal with the layer break...if you create an image using clonedvd, can't you then go into ImgBurn and use "TOOLS > ISO > display layer break information"?

if the layer break exists, that should tell you where it is. If it does not exist it should give an error and at least then you'll know for sure how clonedvd handles it.

reasonsnotrules,

I like your ideas and ELBY/SLYSOFT should take note. Regards simplicity, I think the mechanics of layer break placement are mathematical. There are only a few simple rules and some calculations that can generate a list of potential places where the layer break can be inserted. If there were a chapter break or a title break, within that area/region of possibility for one to exist and abide by the DVD specifications, then it could be automatic based on that condition occuring. If the whole movie were one long 7GB chapter, for example, then it would not be easy to pick a guaranteed good spot and in that case it would not work out so well to the advantage of the user. You might as well just write it out using COPY2DVD and have it place the LB where it wants, regardless of how it might reflect when you watch the DVD you just burned.

I think one problem is that DL discs are always written OTP - which means that layer 0 starts at the middle and heads for the edge and layer 1 then starts where layer 0 left off and heads back towards the middle again. This means that layer 1 cannot be bigger than layer 0. I think that any program that would allow you to manually set the layer break would have to have a few validation rules to make sure that layer 0 was always the largest.

I am sure I read somewhere that a movie that was mastered PTP would not copy correctly with DVDDecrypter as layer 1 was indeed bigger than layer 0. However this may have come to me in a dream and be a total load of rubbish!!

http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/...breakpoint.cfm

(1) Layer 0 (first layer) starts at the inside and spirals toward the outside.

"At this time, all dual layer recordable DVDs are oriented with Opposite Track Path. This means that the first layer (0) is recorded in a spiral track from the inside to the outside of the disc, and the second layer (1) is recorded in a spiral track from the outside (at the same diameter where the first layer finished recording), back towards the inside of the disc. For all Opposite Track Path DVDs, the layer break point must be at a sector address that is at least halfway through the total number of sectors. This insures that layer 0 is larger than layer 1. If layer 0 was not larger than layer 1, the disc would run out of room when it records layer 1, since it starts at the end of layer 0 and records back to the inside."

"Generally, the ideal layer break point is halfway through the title, or as near to this point as possible (given the conditions described above). When one or both layers is filled to near capacity, the content is written close to the outer radius of the disc, where there is a greater possibility of problems in manufacturing either replicated DVDs or DVD recordable discs. This is why it is not a good idea to push the capacity limits of a DVD."

(2) You can use this spreadsheet to understand the layer break locations:

http://www.gearsoftware.com/support/...calculator.xls

(3) You can use IFOEDIT to manually make the layer break setting.

(4) I think its easy to offer an automated option that can pick a best case layer break point based on a rules based scenario. If the DVD content offers a best_case position to insert the LB, then its a great convenience to the user. If not, you haven't lost anything by letting the program at least try.