For those interested in DAE quality - Club CDFreaks

*Upp3rd0G* · 26-09-2002

Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, has started a new project on DAE quality. With the use of a selfmade test-cd and some analyse software you can test your own drives for its DAE capabilities.

I have tested 3 drives: Plextor Px-40ts, LiteOn Ltd-163 and LiteOn Ltr-40125s.

The results and some discussion can be found here on the EAC forum.

Feel free to ask questions, discuss the results or display your own results.

**spath** · 30-09-2002

As I already said elsewhere this project has
been quite badly devised, so one should not
consider its results as gospel and certainly not
choose a drive based on them.

*Upp3rd0G* · 30-09-2002

@spath

As I am still seriously interested in this subject and as I am also willing to learn, I will PM you about this subject. Hope you can clear up things for me!

**spath** · 07-10-2002

Not only is this project badly devised, but the
thread you started (http://www.digital-inn.de/showthread.php?threadid=15838)
shows how confused Andre is about audio
extraction : don't trust his stuff or his
explanations.

*alexnoe* · 07-10-2002

I'm struggling with his picture...what exactly does *he* mean with "one block? Does he mean an F2 Frame?

*Upp3rd0G* · 07-10-2002

http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/cdda7.php3
http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/cdrom3.php3
http://www.ee.washington.edu/consele...udio2/95x7.htm

From Chip Chapin's page:

Quote:

"A Sector is the smallest addressable part of the information area that can be accessed independently" [ECMA-130 section 14]. A sector contains 98 frames. The frames themselves are the same as was described in the CD-DA section -- each frame of 588 channel bits contains a "payload" of 192 data bits, or 24 data bytes. Thus there are 24*98 = 2352 data bytes in a sector.

In the drawing Pio2001 refers to a block which is the same as a frame.

*BoSkin* · 08-10-2002

Quote:

The Plextor was always considered as the king of DAE... This turns out to be a myth

Having read your post there I'm now

what to think about it. What's your final opinion about it after all ?
I mean I too have both Plextor PX-W4012A and LTR-48125W,
so I'm really concened in finding out which one of these 2 is actually the best in DAEquality ?

Thanks in advance !

*Upp3rd0G* · 08-10-2002

It seems there are many factors which might influence the graphs and outcome of these tests so my preliminary results might not be correct...

*BoSkin* · 08-10-2002

Yeah, I kinda understand that. But anyway, I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me
which one of the drivers is in your view a better audio reader/ DA extracter.

Thanks again !

*Upp3rd0G* · 08-10-2002

I really can't say, they are both excellent drives. I still have faith in Plextor so I would take the Plextor...

*alexnoe* · 08-10-2002

I don't understand the post by BobHere in that thread:
If there are too many C2 errors in one frame, then it's not possible to say which bytes are good or bad. The whole frame should then be considered bad.

*Upp3rd0G* · 08-10-2002

I assume he is talking about E12 and E22 errors.

*Upp3rd0G* · 23-10-2002

Here is an interesting quote from the EAC forum user BobHere

Quote:

That is a point of some discussion. There is no doubt that a correctly operating C2 error detection scheme will detect errors far more reliably than a double read system like EAC's non C2 secure mode. The issue is how good is the C2 reporting of the drives.

Almost all testing I have seen on C2 reporting has been under extreme circumstances (long black mark tests). The performance of C2 reporting revealed by these extreme tests may be affected by a number of factors that may have nothing to do with its own accuracy and more to do with how the drive responds to such extreme conditions. Most everyone would abandon a rip that had this level of damage.

The LTR40125s gives very good (almost perfect) C2 reporting even with these extreme tests. I have previously done some extensive testing of C2 and I am satisfied that it works perfectly on all three of my drives under normal conditions. In the absence of definitive test results the final decision is up to you.

Regards,
Bob

Here is another quote.

Quote:

The behaviour around a large black mark is difficult to describe without knowing how the chipset has been designed, these things are not laid down in stone in the Red Book standards. It will probably deviate from what is predicted by CIRC and it may be this that is causing some drives to test poorly to C2 reporting using Andre's test disc.

These are some questions that need answers to get a 100% understanding and be the God of DAE!

Does the drive mute?

If it mutes what is the trigger point to start and end a mute?

If it mutes, what algorithm does it use to prevent a click at the mute and demute points?

Does it have advanced interpolation and how does this work?

How does the drive resynch after a loss of synch? How many frame headers does it check, does it 'backtrack' after meeting its resych criteria (may relate to your question)?

Does the drive flag bad EFM symbols and mark them as erasures for the C1 decoder or does it pick the most likely answer and just hope.

What does the drive do with the data stream when it gets a HF optical output dropout (caused by the loss of return signal), does it act on this information to mark the data as erasures or pass it along as zeros or pass along bad data (at least at the transistion point)? At the transistion point does it mark individual symbols as erasures or does it mark the whole frame ( this may relate to a question you have asked about the beginning of the black mark). This dropout can also be detected in CIRC as both the audio data and parity data would be zeros which is not allowed in normal operation of the code (the parity symbols are inverted), I don't know whether this behaviour is specificed in Red Book.

There are probably many more.

So many possible combinations.

This all sound very plausible to me. A lot of factors are mentioned which might confuse the outcome of the DAE quality test...

For more info on technical issues concerning audio cds search for the posts of BobHere or Pio2001

**spath** · 23-10-2002

> For more info on technical issues concerning
> audio cds search for the posts of BobHere or
> Pio2001

This is hardly "info", more opinions and
guesses. Generally speaking, if you're looking
for technical accuracy, EAC forum is not a good
place. And for serious DAE quality tests stay
around, we're working on it.

Leolo · 24-03-2003

Hi,

Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?

Cheers.

*BoSkin* · 24-03-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Leolo

Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?

Good point !

**spath** · 25-03-2003

> Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests?

ask G@M3FR3@K

Leolo · 31-10-2003

Hi spath,

I'm afraid that the DAE quality tests are time-consuming and G@M3FR3@K hasn't had time to complete them.

But, could you please tell us some details about the tests?

Could we make them on our own using common software (like CDSpeed or DAEquality package by Andre) or is it necessary to have another utility?

Thanks a lot.
Regards.

**spath** · 02-11-2003

These were tests with ABEX discs and CDSpeed
on various drives to measure C2 reporting
precision and audio extraction quality in general.
Unfortunately they never got finished, and only
someone with these ABEX discs could help.

26-09-2002	#1
Upp3rd0G CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NL Posts: 2,107	For those interested in DAE quality Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, has started a new project on DAE quality. With the use of a selfmade test-cd and some analyse software you can test your own drives for its DAE capabilities. I have tested 3 drives: Plextor Px-40ts, LiteOn Ltd-163 and LiteOn Ltr-40125s. The results and some discussion can be found here on the EAC forum. Feel free to ask questions, discuss the results or display your own results. __________________ You can help us to help you even better. You can help fund our research Please read the rules Please detail your problem... What info do U provide? Try our Search... function Please read this for more info on audio copy protections

30-09-2002	#3
Upp3rd0G CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NL Posts: 2,107	@spath As I am still seriously interested in this subject and as I am also willing to learn, I will PM you about this subject. Hope you can clear up things for me! __________________ You can help us to help you even better. You can help fund our research Please read the rules Please detail your problem... What info do U provide? Try our Search... function Please read this for more info on audio copy protections

07-10-2002	#5
alexnoe CDFreaks Resident Join Date: May 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 4,612	I'm struggling with his picture...what exactly does he mean with "one block? Does he mean an F2 Frame? __________________ Asus P4C800E-Deluxe, Win XP, P4/2800 HT, 2048 MB RAM, 600 GB HDD, Plextor PX712/716/755/Premium, LG 4120B, Pioneer A08, Pioneer A09, NEC ND-3540A/4550A ------------------------------------------------ If at first you don't succeed, redefine success! How a troll wants to force users of Linux to buy Windows just to make use of Plextor DVD writer unique functions ------------------------------------------------ PxScan/PxView (compatible to Premium, PX-712, PX-714, PX-716), now with built-in picture file output Bitsetting via Autostart My Blog about DADVSI (new french copyright) Last edited by alexnoe; 07-10-2002 at 23:29..

08-10-2002	#8
Upp3rd0G CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NL Posts: 2,107	It seems there are many factors which might influence the graphs and outcome of these tests so my preliminary results might not be correct... __________________ You can help us to help you even better. You can help fund our research Please read the rules Please detail your problem... What info do U provide? Try our Search... function Please read this for more info on audio copy protections

08-10-2002	#10
Upp3rd0G CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: NL Posts: 2,107	I really can't say, they are both excellent drives. I still have faith in Plextor so I would take the Plextor... __________________ You can help us to help you even better. You can help fund our research Please read the rules Please detail your problem... What info do U provide? Try our Search... function Please read this for more info on audio copy protections

Today
CD Freaks	__________________ This advertising will not be shown to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on Club CD Freaks - Knowledge is Power

30-09-2002	#2
spath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 973	As I already said elsewhere this project has been quite badly devised, so one should not consider its results as gospel and certainly not choose a drive based on them.

08-10-2002	#9
BoSkin CDFreaks Resident Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sthlm Posts: 5,496	Yeah, I kinda understand that. But anyway, I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me which one of the drivers is in your view a better audio reader/ DA extracter. Thanks again !

23-10-2002	#14
spath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 973	> For more info on technical issues concerning > audio cds search for the posts of BobHere or > Pio2001 This is hardly "info", more opinions and guesses. Generally speaking, if you're looking for technical accuracy, EAC forum is not a good place. And for serious DAE quality tests stay around, we're working on it.

24-03-2003	#15
Leolo New on Forum Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 13	Hi, Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests? Cheers.

25-03-2003	#17
spath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 973	> Excuse me, is there any news regarding those DAE quality tests? ask G@M3FR3@K

31-10-2003	#18
Leolo New on Forum Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 13	Hi spath, I'm afraid that the DAE quality tests are time-consuming and G@M3FR3@K hasn't had time to complete them. But, could you please tell us some details about the tests? Could we make them on our own using common software (like CDSpeed or DAEquality package by Andre) or is it necessary to have another utility? Thanks a lot. Regards.

02-11-2003	#19
spath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 973	These were tests with ABEX discs and CDSpeed on various drives to measure C2 reporting precision and audio extraction quality in general. Unfortunately they never got finished, and only someone with these ABEX discs could help.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
HELP! DAE 7x and DAE quality 10?	jcrash07	Newbie Forum	3	26-03-2007 15:43
165P6S and Overburning/DAE Quality Test	psychok9	LiteOn / PLDS / Sony Burner	6	21-03-2007 12:31
Interested	ghall54	DvdReMake	2	11-04-2006 12:12
To G@M3FR3@K: Any news regarding DAE quality tests?	Leolo	Plextor Burner	1	26-03-2003 17:56
Quality of audio burning (BLER, DAE)	spacecorn	General Hardware Forum	5	31-12-2001 21:47