I own an Onkyo DX-RD511 standalone audio burner. I'm in the middle of a big analog dubbing project, putting my old FM concert tapes on CD-R

I typically use Maxell Music Pro, for 4x burning and superior sound quality. Maxell has stopped making these, and isn't issuing a dual-use version of its comparable computer CD-R, Maxell CD-R Pro. The lower grade of Maxell audio CD-R, the Maxell Music CD-R, is awful sounding in comparison.

How can I get my recorder to accept Maxell CD-R Pro instead of Music Pro? I can't use the trick of manually substituting an audio disc for a computer disc after initializing. THANKS

Do you have a computer and will your standalone recorder accept Audio CD-RW media?

If the answer to both questions is "yes", then you could burn to CD-RW media and then copy to high-quality CD-R media on your computer.

Nope, I can't do that. CD-Rs have different sonic signatures, or the lack of them, depending on the quality of manufacture. I use the best quality CD-R I can afford to use hundreds of - the Maxell CD-R Pro, and, formerly for my audio standalone, the discontinued Maxell Music Pro. These lack a lot of the bad harmonic overtones (consistent sound coloration) that makes music burned on inferior media sound alike.

If I was going to record onto low-fidelity CD-R media to reburn to Maxell CD-R Pro, I might as well just save money and record onto the lousy inferior Maxell Music CD-Rs that I despise. Or I might as well kill myself, as that I would lose that much self respect for that lousy a sonic outcome using either method.

WTF is a 'sonic signature'? Bits is bits buddy. The only difference between a CDR and a Music CDR is you pay royalties and can only make a limited number of copies of a Music CDR. That's the gotcha of stand alone CD Recorders. Any major brand should be fine.

The software/firmware inside such "standalone audio recorders/drives" will check any blank media before writing to it. These "Audio CD-R" are digitally marked in some way and if the check fails the recorder will deny the usage.
AFAIK, there are some hacks or patches for several of these recorders.
Maybe check forums like videohelp.com for more info.

You don't seem to understand the properties of digital information. Only the last medium in the chain can have any effect on the final sound, as long as there are no digital errors in the copying chain.

If you copy audio onto digital media a thousand times, the first 999 mediums will have no impact on the sound quality you get on the 1000th copy, and if the 1000th copy is a CD, then only the quality of that CD will have any impact on the sound quality coming out of your amplifier (and for CD players designed in a sensible way, the quality of that CD will also have no impact on sound quality).

If you record onto low quality CD-RW media in your audio recorder and then copy (rip & burn) the CD to high quality CD-R media in your computer, the final sound quality will depend *only* on the final CD-R (and the CD player) - provided that the CD-RW was read without any errors in the computer.

But it's your own choice.

Yes, it is. I'm dealing with analog sources and recording here, hundreds of them. Like I want to spend extra money and time burning everything twice, when a simple end run around a bad techno law is what I want. Please don't even suggest reusing those CD-RWs, as the sound degrades even further.

Spoken like a guy who buys his audio equipment at Wal-Mart, and largely uses only his computer speakers. If you didn't, you'd know that different CD-Rs create different harmonic coloration, making two sources burned onto two of the same bad CD-Rs sound similarly bad afterward, exactly the way two poor quality cassettes used to. That's a sonic signatire caused by media. Go get some original CDs you burned and compare them on a good audio system to the burns you made. Suicide hotlines are listed in the phonebook.

You're posting misinformation here. You are welcome to believe in "harmonic coloration" magically hiding outside of the digital information on the disc, but don't expect others to share those beliefs.

And I don't buy my audio equipment at Wal-Mart, and each of my speakers costs more than a computer.

EDIT. You edited your message...

Any more language like that and you will find your forum access restricted or revoked.

I'm out. People who've been where they've been want what they want. People who haven't offer rationalizatons based on industry hype rather than experience and discovery. Do not want. Bye.

Here's a guy who knows the wherefore, though I don't like the media he prefers:

www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CDsII.pdf

I feel about my Maxell Pro line what he feels about his media.

I tried to edit down my first reaction to "WTF," but your setup doesn't favor busy people.

That article is about burning on computer though. And quite honestly, a very subjective and superficial scribble. Perhaps you're too busy to notice that.

I've read that paper before and now I've read it again.

Although the paper does contain some useful tips, it also contains so much conjecture and downright misinformation, that I find it painful to read.

I find it particularly painful to see the author claiming that ripped WAV files on the computer, which are digitially identical, can sound different depending on which program was used to extract it from the Audio CD.

The placebo effect is very powerful for people who believe that some change they make to their Hi-Fi setup improves sound. Most of the time the perceived difference disappears when doing scientific double-blind testing on the same equipment.

I've performed enough listening tests myself to know how people can fool themselves in non-blind or even single-blind listening tests. People hear what they expect to hear or want to hear, and once they have a made a decision they will come up with all sorts of arguments to justify what they think they heard.

Very true. I wouldn't argue if someone said "I can tell the difference between this speaker cable and that speaker cable", or ..."this pre-amp and that pre-amp"... but digital disc colour?

BTW the Maxell Music Pro discs can still be found at a price:

http://www.microwarehouse.co.uk/cata...dealgroupmedia

BTW what on earth are those 'IsoDiscs' that are piled on top of the CD Writer on page 12 of the 'Black CD' article?

A magical contraption for dampening vibrations in the CD writer, as I understand it. It's amazing how many silly contraptions can be sold to Hi-Fi freaks.

I'm a Hi-Fi freak myself, but I don't believe in magical green pens, demagnetizing (non-magnetic) CDs and LPs, and many of the other bogus things that some companies will sell.

I remember the magic green pens. The ones you draw round the edge of the disc to 'improve readability'?

Golden days of marketing, indeed.

I'm tellin' ya - I didn't want to come back here and misbehave - and I won't and I'm sorry I did. But if you take the time to arrange A-B tests for yourselves with CDs you know and a couple diff quality/make CD-Rs, you will hear what I started hearing casually, and proved to myself by experiment: media manfacturing differences color sound. Just as it did with different bias types of cassette, and different tape formulations of the same grade: a more balanced sound on TDK SA-X, a less trebly and more bass-y sound on Maxell UDXL II-S.

Different CD-R brands produce different sound colorations on copied discs in a standalone or computer burner. Some CD-Rs sound so poor, you might as well be listening to .mp3 as to .wav files opened from .flac or .shn. (These also copy factory CDs poorly.) Go get any album you know and copy it to two diff brands/quality CD-R. Now spot-listen to all three, the CD first. I recommend you make one CD-R a Maxell CD-R Pro, probably the best computer CD-R in an affordable range. Don't even try this on loudspeakers with plastic cabinets.

Why do you think Mitsui can sell gold CD-Rs at $2 apiece? I've heard 'em, they're swell, but I can't afford a couple hundred to finish an analog dub project already 1/3 completed on the discontinued Maxell Music Pro. I don't care if the science is questionable in the article - somebody finally demonstrated they have ears.

Try it yourself, in computer or standalone. Put up or...

And, if bits is bits, then why does a CD-R computer or standalone burn *not sound as fully dimensional* as the original CD? That's a simple A-B test you can do with any borrowed CD and one CD-R you normally use. Again, it takes ears and at least mid-fi equipment. Do it, and you'll wish you had bought more CDs - sadness equaling wisdom. FYI, good candidates for this test are the latest Virgin edition of Exile on Main Street, and the latest 1-CD Neil Young's Greatest Hits, often found in public library collections. Burn one or both on computer or stand alone, then A-B and be ready to catch your face when it falls. Mine did. the burns lost a disappointing amount of the tape track and instrumental separation that made the CDs give the LPs (I have 'em, year of release) a run for their money.

I don't have enough money to be lulled by a placebo. I'm hard-assed for getting the best that my mid-fi budget (Adcom, Creek Audio, Legacy speakers) can afford. When I hear sound greatly colored in one CD-R by Maxell, and less colored on a better quality Maxell, I can't go back.

Also, if you haven't compared extractions by EAC with lesser extractions, you don't know that the gap-stop info that your equipment will use to flesh out a poor extraction will cause noise and distortion. I extract at 4x with EAC and burn at 4x with Nero. Burning at higher speeds will also cause noise from inserted gap-stop bits. High-speed burning is blamed for the poor quality of factory CDs.

Those magic green pens, or any stable-on-plastic green or black marker from Wal-Mart @ $1.99, curbed scattered reflectivity, and made many nasty-sounding late-80s-to mid-90s CDs sound less strident and brought up previously thin bass . If you were accepting this stuff from the record companies, then you weren't predisposed to seek or accept a solution, yes?

There ya go again...Factory CDs are pressed, not burned...

Your on top DrageMester and ImKidd57! Great thread and answers too!

You know WTF I mean. Please BAN ME from the site so I'm not tempted to come for answers to people like you who'll roll over for anything and call it sugar, but not help someone who wants something specific and, to them, necessary. If I needed food, you'd tell me to meditate because the world's an illusion.

The PRO Maxells (Music or otherwise) have an additional protective layer to prevent deterioration if abused in a car etc. Period. I've used the "red" Maxell music discs (Taiyo Yuden) for years now with great results. So much so that a person who heard the copy I made with one, on my Pioneer pdr509 (who swore he'd never use a "burnt"disc) said he had never heard a copy that sounded as good as the original. His system cost in excess of $20,000. I don't abide by the rule that more money always means better sound but it's hard to get poor fidelity if you spend 20 grand! I use EAC and Burrrn at 24x. There are reasons for burning at higher speeds with newer gear. They are made for it! I'm not saying 52X; I'm saying find the best speed for your media and burner run your K-probe and/or Nero check and be done with it. All my burns with Taiyo Yuden CDrs come out well under 1 (average) C1 errors, usually .04 -.1 with no more than 7 at one time. I defy anyone to hear a difference between the burned disc and the original. Maybe after a few years there would be some degradation, but not enough to affect the sound of the disc, if it was a good burn in the first place. Placebo effect works primarily on a subconscious level, so to say that you are immune to it indicates you don't understand it. Many highly intelligent people spend thousands of dollars (millions?) to get their Placebo effect "just right".

Since you didn't heed my warning...

Wish granted.

My apologies. I certainly wasn't trying to bait you. But...I will respond to any misinformation I perceive. And a statement like 'High-speed burning is blamed for the poor quality of factory CDs.' is about as far from true as any I've responded to.

olyteddy,
I really can understand you.