52 Speed unsafe for CDR Drives? - Club CDFreaks

^DA^ZoMBiE · 21-11-2002

what does evryone make of this statement from Maxell

Quote:

With its 48X product introduction, Maxell is joining with other CD industry leaders such as Sony, Yamaha and Plextor in adopting 48X as the new high-speed standard, as opposed to the 52X benchmark, because of reliability concerns at the higher speed. Maxell engineers determined that the minimal speed advantage offered by 52X drives is outweighed by the performance and safety issues of operating CD-R media in excess of 10,000 rpm. Research has shown that naturally occurring minute defects or cracks in the CD-R hub area can quickly expand when exposed to the physical stresses of 52X operations. These small, virtually undetectable defects can easily cause discs to break apart at 52X speed, destroying not only critical data stored on the CD-R media, but potentially damaging or destroying the CD drive.

is this scare mongering tactics or what?

*Inertia* · 21-11-2002

I think that it is a reasonable assessement of the minimal speed gains of 52x operation compared to the increased problems of safety and disc manufacturing technology.

To produce a reliable 52x CDR it may require a new manufacturing process which would result in a more expensive product. Nobody is interested in a more expensive product, and there is very little enthusiasm among CDR manufacturers to go forward with a 52x CDR.

The market has been driven by speed increase hype, but in truth the performance gain from 48x to 52x is not significant. Overall, from a safety/reliability and product engineering point of view, the point of diminishing returns has been reached at 48x.

*rdgrimes* · 21-11-2002

The 52x LiteOn drive gains as much in burn time, (over the 48x), as the 48x did over the 40x. But the time savings is not due to the max speed, it's due to the start speed being higher and the fact that it reaches 40x speed sooner. Given some appropriate media, the 52x drive takes another 20sec off the total burn time compared to the 48x.
My 52x drive has been reading and burning at 52x here for over 100 CD's, (all kinds), still no evidence of damage.
Perhaps what Maxell is really saying is that they have no confidence in THEIR meda, or they are just afraid of law suits.
It's hard to imagine that the tolerances are so slim that a slight increase in RPM from 48x to 52x will make a difference in failure rates. If this is the case then we should also be seeing some discs fail at 48x. Time will tell, and you can rest assured that if the demand exists, Maxell will be selling 52x media. If TDK and Memorex start selling it, Maxell will suddenly come up with some new "research" showing that it's safe.

*nealh* · 21-11-2002

interesting item from Maxell

is liteon the only company making a 52x cdr..I know they stated 52x will probably be the "end" of the line so to speak...this stated by a spokeman from Liteon and it was referenced here at the forums awhile back

Hope this is not true...but if so I guess I will just burn at 48x....with my 52x cdrw...

I will say the burns seem to be of a better quality with this drive on my TY 40x and they do burn at 52x as per smart burn

I really got it in hopes the burns with the new chipset would be of a better quality

*rdgrimes* · 21-11-2002

I don't see any "quality" issues with either my 48x or 52x LiteOns, other than the media not being up to the speeds. At any burn speed, they perform much the same as far as the relative "burn quality". I may have noticed that the 52x drive has fewer read-errors on a given disc, but they both are exceptional readers as well. I have yet to see media that will burn all the way to 52x, SmartBurn always slows them down at various points, but the result is generally an error-free disc. I always burn at 40x max anyway, for relative safety.

*nealh* · 21-11-2002

I did the reads for errors on my LTD 163 which until fw VS08 with 48x writer always gave at least one error

I agree the burn speed maybe drop ..I really have not paid attention...but Nero seems to get close to 50x with no speed drop on my TY 40x cdr....at least the 3-4 I have used so far

I am happy with the drive and as long as my burns are of good quality who cares...

*Inertia* · 22-11-2002

My earlier comments about disc manufacturing changes should have been referenced to 56x discs, not 52x discs. This information came from http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php3?ID=4977.

*nealh* · 22-11-2002

thanks..I thought I saw that info somewhere

*Inertia* · 24-11-2002

One other point. When the operating speed of a CD increases, the centripetal force (responsible for shattered discs) does not increase in a linear fashion, but as the square of the velocity of the disc.

Going from 40x to 52x is a 30% speed increase. That same change results in a 69% increase in centripetal force. The 8.3% speed change from 48x to 52x results in a 17.4% increase in centripetal force.

Not long ago 32x ATAPI devices were high speed devices. A 52x drive is 62.5% faster, but the radial forces trying to destroy the disc are increased 164% over the force on the 32x disc.

21-11-2002	#4 (permalink)
nealh CloneCD Veteran Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,889	interesting item from Maxell is liteon the only company making a 52x cdr..I know they stated 52x will probably be the "end" of the line so to speak...this stated by a spokeman from Liteon and it was referenced here at the forums awhile back Hope this is not true...but if so I guess I will just burn at 48x....with my 52x cdrw... I will say the burns seem to be of a better quality with this drive on my TY 40x and they do burn at 52x as per smart burn I really got it in hopes the burns with the new chipset would be of a better quality __________________ e6600@3.6 1.4v bios 2747 Dtek Fuzion Badaxe2 bios 2747 MCH 1.575/vFSB 1.3 2 x 1GB 10th Anniv. Crucial @DDR800 4-4-4-2T 2.0v x1900xt CF MCW60 Rad: PA120.3/ Pump: DDC2 w/ Petra's top; 7/16in masterkleer Seagate 320gb 7200.10/200gb 7200.8 SATA X-Fi music/SH-203B /LG H62L/ LH-201AL Corsair HX620w /Acer AL2223W/modded TJ07

21-11-2002	#6 (permalink)
nealh CloneCD Veteran Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,889	I did the reads for errors on my LTD 163 which until fw VS08 with 48x writer always gave at least one error I agree the burn speed maybe drop ..I really have not paid attention...but Nero seems to get close to 50x with no speed drop on my TY 40x cdr....at least the 3-4 I have used so far I am happy with the drive and as long as my burns are of good quality who cares... __________________ e6600@3.6 1.4v bios 2747 Dtek Fuzion Badaxe2 bios 2747 MCH 1.575/vFSB 1.3 2 x 1GB 10th Anniv. Crucial @DDR800 4-4-4-2T 2.0v x1900xt CF MCW60 Rad: PA120.3/ Pump: DDC2 w/ Petra's top; 7/16in masterkleer Seagate 320gb 7200.10/200gb 7200.8 SATA X-Fi music/SH-203B /LG H62L/ LH-201AL Corsair HX620w /Acer AL2223W/modded TJ07

22-11-2002	#8 (permalink)
nealh CloneCD Veteran Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,889	thanks..I thought I saw that info somewhere __________________ e6600@3.6 1.4v bios 2747 Dtek Fuzion Badaxe2 bios 2747 MCH 1.575/vFSB 1.3 2 x 1GB 10th Anniv. Crucial @DDR800 4-4-4-2T 2.0v x1900xt CF MCW60 Rad: PA120.3/ Pump: DDC2 w/ Petra's top; 7/16in masterkleer Seagate 320gb 7200.10/200gb 7200.8 SATA X-Fi music/SH-203B /LG H62L/ LH-201AL Corsair HX620w /Acer AL2223W/modded TJ07

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21-11-2002	#2 (permalink)
Inertia CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,508	I think that it is a reasonable assessement of the minimal speed gains of 52x operation compared to the increased problems of safety and disc manufacturing technology. To produce a reliable 52x CDR it may require a new manufacturing process which would result in a more expensive product. Nobody is interested in a more expensive product, and there is very little enthusiasm among CDR manufacturers to go forward with a 52x CDR. The market has been driven by speed increase hype, but in truth the performance gain from 48x to 52x is not significant. Overall, from a safety/reliability and product engineering point of view, the point of diminishing returns has been reached at 48x.

21-11-2002	#3 (permalink)
rdgrimes Retired Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Deadwood Posts: 11,449	The 52x LiteOn drive gains as much in burn time, (over the 48x), as the 48x did over the 40x. But the time savings is not due to the max speed, it's due to the start speed being higher and the fact that it reaches 40x speed sooner. Given some appropriate media, the 52x drive takes another 20sec off the total burn time compared to the 48x. My 52x drive has been reading and burning at 52x here for over 100 CD's, (all kinds), still no evidence of damage. Perhaps what Maxell is really saying is that they have no confidence in THEIR meda, or they are just afraid of law suits. It's hard to imagine that the tolerances are so slim that a slight increase in RPM from 48x to 52x will make a difference in failure rates. If this is the case then we should also be seeing some discs fail at 48x. Time will tell, and you can rest assured that if the demand exists, Maxell will be selling 52x media. If TDK and Memorex start selling it, Maxell will suddenly come up with some new "research" showing that it's safe.

21-11-2002	#5 (permalink)
rdgrimes Retired Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Deadwood Posts: 11,449	I don't see any "quality" issues with either my 48x or 52x LiteOns, other than the media not being up to the speeds. At any burn speed, they perform much the same as far as the relative "burn quality". I may have noticed that the 52x drive has fewer read-errors on a given disc, but they both are exceptional readers as well. I have yet to see media that will burn all the way to 52x, SmartBurn always slows them down at various points, but the result is generally an error-free disc. I always burn at 40x max anyway, for relative safety.

22-11-2002	#7 (permalink)
Inertia CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,508	My earlier comments about disc manufacturing changes should have been referenced to 56x discs, not 52x discs. This information came from http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php3?ID=4977.

24-11-2002	#9 (permalink)
Inertia CDFreaks Resident Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,508	One other point. When the operating speed of a CD increases, the centripetal force (responsible for shattered discs) does not increase in a linear fashion, but as the square of the velocity of the disc. Going from 40x to 52x is a 30% speed increase. That same change results in a 69% increase in centripetal force. The 8.3% speed change from 48x to 52x results in a 17.4% increase in centripetal force. Not long ago 32x ATAPI devices were high speed devices. A 52x drive is 62.5% faster, but the radial forces trying to destroy the disc are increased 164% over the force on the 32x disc.