I was wondering if converting an mp3 to wav, or wav to mp3 is a lossless process? Or is there some audio loss/degradation (even if inaudible) when converting from either of the two?

If so, are there programs that can convert them so that there is no loss?

Thanks.

Since MP3 is a lossy format by definition, each translation will, in fact, involve loss. There is absolutely no way around this.

That said, MAD will give you the best MP3-to-WAV possible, whereas LAME (when used with the correct parameters) will give you the best WAV-to-MP3 possible.

But no, there is no lossless conversion. Sorry.

MP3 to wav is losless, but wav to mp3 is lossy as mp3 is a lossy format.

Options for MP3 to wav:

1. Winamp file writer plugin (easiest and works well)
2. Lame decoder

Options for WAv to mp3:

Lame - Yes one option only for quality MP3s!

I beg to differ. Different MP3 decoders produce different output. That, by definition, is a characteristic of Lossy encoding. Therefore MP3->WAV cannot be considered Lossless. For example:

Winamp, Lame, and MAD will all produce COMPLETELY different WAV files, given the same MP3 as input. I prefer MAD because it produces, IN MY OPINION (and for very complex reasons), the most faithful reproduction. However, something may happen tomorrow to make the NITRANE (Winamp) decoder better. Sadly, this happens with Lossy compression.

On second thoughts, I agree with you, as minor differences in the WAV output do mean the process is not losless

But I wouldnt bother too much about the artificats resulting from a MP3->WAV conversion.

Yes, nowadays it's not so important. A couple years ago the differences between decoders were quite pronounced. Now... not so much.

Will editing an mp3 (or wav), then saving it in its same format (same bit rate) still produce some sort of loss? Btw, when converting between the two formats, is the lossy noticable? Even in the slightest?

where can i get it

Ive never herd of MAD but I use a program called dBPowerAmp that converts WMA/WAV to MP3's and vice versa and i think you get a good result.You can get a free 30 day trial here....(But you might be able to get it on a P2P site if you now what I mean )

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm

All so there is a WMA codec for it here..

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-wma.htm

i think i can open an mp3 in nero's wave editor and save as a wav file - but haven't had the need to try yet

You've been misled.

MAD is not any better than Nitrane if you're going to decode at 16-bit. The output from the two different decoders will only differ in the LSB of the stream. This is a negligible difference and we can still call the conversion lossless despite this. AFAIK it's just a matter of rounding.

If you want to use MAD at a higher bit depth, that's fine, because its advantage over Nitrane is only the fact that it can decode to higher bit depths.

This is, however, moot, because you might as well be using Foobar2000 rather than Winamp, for the best results.

In short, MP3->WAV is lossless; WAV->MP3 is lossy, because WAV is an uncompressed format and MP3 is a lossy compressed format.

No, not really.

It's DIFFERENT from Nitrane, and it used to be quite a bit better. Nitrane has come a long way.

Blah blah, the stream will be substantially different, that's my argument. Hence it's not lossless.

Nope. Just like the output from PowerDVD is different (run it through a binary compare and see) from the output generated by WinDVD, the output from different MP3 decoders differs. They're all "good enough" nowadays though. If you want to hear the difference, the MAD plugin page has sample wavs created by MAD and Nitrane.

http://www.mars.org/home/rob/proj/mpeg/mad-plugin/

Actually Nitrane can now, too IIRC.

Oh, you're a foobar person. I wasn't referring to Winamp AT ALL. I use the MAD Frontend to decode MP3's directly to WAV.

Incorrect. MP3->WAV is lossy. Different results are produced by different programs. No 1:1 conversion is possible, therefore it is LOSSY.

The MAD Frontend (a standalone program to use MAD for various conversions) can be found at:

http://members.home.nl/w.speek/mad_frontend.htm

However, the MAD project itself lives here:

http://www.underbit.com/products/mad/

And the plugin for Winamp here:

http://www.mars.org/home/rob/proj/mpeg/mad-plugin/

That last link contains WAV files for comparison, so you can hear the difference between Nitrane and MAD.

thanks for all the info Gurm - i learned some more today

From what i've read this is one of the best programs for converting cds into wav files Exact Audio Copy

True, EAC secure mode, to be precise, but unrelated to this topic.