Sorry for another topic regarding CD-R lifespan and write quality... but the more I read, the more I get confused and the more I feel that nobody really knows much about this... (I mean facts)

I spend a really long time (and patience) burning CD's, I invest a lot of time and money to try to make sure it will not be a waste of time and that all this effort is not "erased" in a few years time.

I have a good burner (Plexwriter Premium 1 - Now I've bought a new Premium 2), I store my CD's in individual rigid cases, in usually dark environment... and I try to choose the best media that is available to me.

Choosing the right media... that's the main problem. Because nobody seems to be quite sure about this.

Gold, silver, Cyanine, Azo, black CD's... you name it!

I was told that TY is a safe bet. But then TY CD's are Cyanine Dye, which should be the worst type, technically, at least when longevity is a priority.

How long should a TY CD last? 5 years? 10, 20 years?

Should I really spend the extra money (and time to find them) to get Phthalocyanine Dye CD's, like HHB CDR74 Gold:

http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/int/hhbproducts/media/detail.asp?ID=1464

Is AZO from Verbatim a superior Dye type, is it better than TY Cyanine CD's?

Is TY Cyanine types, for some reason, much better than other Cyanine CD's, and will they last a long time?

What are the manufacturer claims regarding life span? Is it just me, or for the most part of brands and medias, they just don't claim anything?

How come, in 20 years history of the CD-R, there is still so much doubts and uncertainty about this?


Wikipedia info:

Because dye alone doesn't make the disc. So many other factors play a role !

About TY's stability. Keep in mind they outperformed all those pthalocyanine and azo media in C't's accelerated aging test. Including MAM's gold media (which didn't perform much better as CMC silvers !) who also make the hhb gold media !
Now accelerated aging tests also say very little. It only suggests the potential more stable disc.

One thing UV can be controled by good storage so high UV is far less a issue as some manufacturers want you to think.

TY cd-r's should last up more then 5 years based on real life experience with older TY media. Some disc's of my TY disc's are 10+ years old and still looking as good as fresh burned !

Same here.

"Regular", plain cyanine is supposed to be less stable, but in actuality the stabilized cyanine dye that Taiyo Yuden uses is extremely stable. Add to this a very well handled manufacturing process and the result is simply excellent. I'm not a TY fanboy and I don't subscribe to the point of view that their DVDRs are the best, but for CDRs that's another story. I don't see what else I could recommend, except the Maxell "Pro" or "Broadcast quality" lines, which are much more expensive (like anything that is TY-like in terms of quality).
The only thing that these TY discs fear more than the best phtalocyanine formulations, is sunlight. Really not an issue unless you leave the discs upside down in your car, which I doubt since you seem to be pretty serious about media storing/handling, aren't you?...

Yeah, the contradicting infos around the net can be very confusing.
I know the feeling: I've been in the same confusion as you are now, three years ago or so. Trust us: you'll be perfectly fine with TY CDRs. If you want maximum lifespan, don't burn at max speed, don't overburn, store in proper cases, handle with care et voilà.

My own experiences do not put much faith in the choice of dye used for a particular CD-R. Cyanine or Phthalocyanine, I have samples of both which have failed within a few years (Doremi media/Ritek/Vivastar) and many TY with C2 errors (probably due to low level sunlight exposure )

Now the choice of premium CD-R is quite limited with only TY as the simple choice. Just keep them away from any light

Where can I find results from this "C't's accelerated aging test". And... what is that?


By the way, I've found these in Verbatim website:

UltraLife™ Gold Archival Grade CD-R 80MIN 700MB 52X 50pk Spindle

Verbatim Gold Archival Grade

Any comments on this media? Verbatim seems to have very high hopes for this

C't is a german magazine conducting periodic tests, among other stuff, with burners and media. They cover performance, quality, and potential climatic stability (the latter trough accelerated aging tests putting lots of stress on the discs, the reason why it's only indications, and doesn't necessarily reflect real-world stability in normal use). Their tests are made with professional equipement and conducted through standardized methods, and are regarded rather highly by many advanced users or professionals.

The reports are not directly available on the net, though "Mediumrare" at the Cdrlabs forum often writes summaries of these tests there, a move for which several of us (who don't speak german or don't have access to the magazine) are very thankful.

Check this thread at Cdrlabs. It started in 2003 so it's veeery long, so make yourself a nice cup of coffee, and be prepared for quite some reading. (I personally found it totally worth it ).

Actually CD-Rs can last quite a long time. I still have a back up of Starcraft that I made in 1998 (Imation CD-R), it still works today. That was before I know anything about what CD-R is good or anything.

I don't have but I know something
it is Prodisc made Quality

P.S CD is live more than 10 years more because same size ( 12cm ) Blu ray / HD DVD My guess

Because IMO the accelerated ageing tests mean nothing, and as we are only just getting to around 25+ years of having CD's around, and in fact its only just over 10 years of big numbers of mass market CD burners and media that is in the reach of just about everybody, so only now are we seeing 'real world' testing telling the truth.

I think that anyone that makes a CDr and expects to be able to lock it away for 20 years and then to have something they can use without any problems is deluding themselves. I am in the process of backing up a lot of media I made in the last 10 years, most of it is still good, but some are not of any use at all.

As soon as time machines are used in these accelerated ageing tests then I will take a bit more notice.

I have about 100 CDRs from TY, burnt in 1998/99.
All of them have now error rates as low as follows:
c1 (average): 0,5 to 2,0
c1 (maximum): 20 to 30
c2: none
(test performed with plextools and Plex Premium at 10-24x)

Thus these CDRs seem to be quite stable, as that are error rates as seen with very good CDRs just after burning.

But if you want to get even more stable CDs, you have to burn Verbatim 1-4x or 4-10x, but only one time (not rewriting them frequently). They are absolutely stable and less UV-sensitive (all modern CD-Players are playing CDRWs).

I understand you point of view, if you dismiss accelerated aging tests as a method to predict actual lifespan. I tend to agree.

But I can't agree that they mean nothing. If two discs are put through it, and one does much better in the test than the other, it does give an indication, which is that it's very probable that this disc doing better will be more stable in real-world. Not proof, agreed, but a significant probability nevertheless.

A real-world example? RITEKG05 did very poorly in these tests...

Besides, to be able to produce stable media, manufacturers have only these tests, because they don't have time machines. These test are actually paramount for quality media production.

Another important consideration is that we can't simply rely on the stability of 10-years old discs to predict the lifespan of current blanks, which have a different technology since the burning speed tolerance has had to increase dramatically. These 10-years old CDRs were 1X-4X rated, and had the relevant manufacturing. Manufacturing 52X rated CDRs is different, the end product is different and has a different behaviour. For instance, the recordable layer is thinner...

Now add to this the variation in quality from this or that manufacturer over the years, and you realise that in actuality, trust in a manufacturer because of past reliability and accelerated aging tests are the only two things helping in choosing "probably stable" CDR blanks.

I totally agree, though, that people just burning discs, locking them away and expecting they'll still be readable in 20 years are fooling themselves.

I'm about to buy a large quantity of Verbatim Pastel CDR (in 50 unit cackeboxes). VERBATIM 43417

Do you guys know if there is any difference between the ones labeled as 48x and the ones labeled as 52x ???

I know that there should be no TY CDR rated at 52x... but in fact Verbatim is selling these with 52x stamped on the box. Could it be just a label mistake and in fact all pastel CDR made by TY are the same regardless of 48x or 52x showing on the label?

Thanks!

Kinda OT question, but rather interesting.

That's a tough one. Probably only someone who actually bought and uses these "52X rated" pastels, and checks the ATIP, can give an answer. Unless Dakhaas or another of our "experts" already knows what's behind this.

My thoughts:

On one hand, it sound nonsensical that these are the same model, as a burner firmware will show fixed available buring speeds for a given ATIP.
Same ATIP = no change in available speeds in burner's firmware.
Higher available speeds in burner's firmware => different ATIP.

On the other hand, maybe some recent burner's firmwares include a higher available burning speed for the current ATIP, so Verbatim decided for marketing reasons to sell these as 52X rated, though many burners will only allow 48X (or even slower) in actuality. This has been the case for many CDR models with a given ATIP, that have been first sold as 24X rated, then little by little up to 48X rated with each new burners lines.

Or it could be mislabelling, indeed.

I think my Premium 2 shows a maximum write speed of 52x for Plextor branded TY with 48x label.

I'm about to buy some 500 of these Pastel 52x ... picking them up today, if I shouldn't do so... please let me know, in the next 2 hours hehehehehe

By the way, what is the best app to get ATIP information from a CDR?

I think this confirms my theory #2.. Personally I see no reason why... "Best"? either an app shows the ATIP or it doesn't. There's no "better" or "worse" way to do that. The easiest move is Nero CDSpeed., "disc info" tab.

Verbatim europe website claims 100 years archival life for these:

Pastel 52x

hehehehe I know, I meant "best" as in "easy to get". Nero will do just fine then

Thank you very much for your help!

You're welcome, happy Pastels burning!

I have the Pastel 52x with me.

Checked the full ATIP information using Nero.

These Pastel 52x are exactly the same as the Plextor 48x TY CD's. The ATIP for both is 100% the same, code by code, letter by letter, number by number... Both report maximum speed of 52x.

Shouldn't the ATIP be different, even if the manufacturer and product is the same? I mean, is the ATIP information supposed to show the branding information?

Anyway, I just wanted to share the information.

Taiyo Yuden only ever certified its discs for up to 48x IIRC, though since many burners can burn them at 52x they get labelled as such.

I just burned two of these Pastel discs for testing.

For exactly the same recording, I get some more C1 errors, and some more jitter than with the Plextor branded TY with the same ATIP.

C1 total errors for this burn is around 1250/1500 with the Plextor branded CDR.
C1 total errors for this burn is around 2250/2500 with the Verbatim Pastel branded CDR.

Still a good media, but for some reason not quite as good as the Plextor... from looking at the CD's, the Verbatim seem to have thinner coating on the top side (label). Also, on the edge of the CD's, the surface is not as smooth as in the Plextor CD's, I can actually feel the imperfections with my fingers... With the Plextor CD's I feel no imperfections on the edge. Probably quality control is not the same for the two brands.

Same model.
Verbatim decided to rate them 52x because most 52x writers will write with at 52x.
ATIP shows the branding information. Taiyo Yuden

I understand you completely, but your thinking to much black.
Estimating life time is useless and you still have the batch variation problems.
Also those tests have quite some limitations. But there not as useless as you think.
Questionable media(Princo,RitekG05) will fall through.While media that consistantly performs good will also proof to be the more reliable sollutions in life.
Also the following those acceleration aging testing (minus the lifetime prediction stuff) fit most times quite nice with the perfomance of media in countries with hard conditions !
So while they have a large ammount of limitations they do give some valid info.A few things when ussing the data ignore the propaganda stuff, ignore lifetime predictions and just look at performance and interpretate it yourself this way you can actually get usefull data out of it.

Just to make things 100% clear, SergioRZ, the branding as in "Verbatim" or "Plextor" will never show up in the ATIP info with these blanks, as neither Verbatim or Plextor have anything to do with the manufacturing (unless they print the top layer themselves, which is possible but still, this is not "manufacturing" per se).. It's pure outsourcing: TY makes the discs with their own technology, Verbatim and Plextor sell them under their brand.

Other brands outsourcing to TY for CDRs can be Sony, Fuji, TDK, Datasafe... the ATIP will always only show "Taiyo Yuden" because these brands don't make the discs! Of course, there are also blanks with fake TY ATIP, but that's another story..

@Dakhaas : thanks for the confirmation.

I bought some Plextor-CDR-Cakeboxes in 2005 and a year later again. The first ones have errors of c1 (average) around 1.0 , the latter ones of around 1.8 - 2.0. All of them are TY. Different production series - different error rates.

Discs don't "have" C1 errors. These errors are low-level errors that occur during the reading process, and depend as much on the reader and the burner than on the media.

My point being: to avoid comparing pears and apples, you must make sure that you compare discs burnt in the same burner, at the same speed, and that you scan them in the same drive at the same scanning speed.

If you don't make sure of that, you can't make conclusions about a possible variation in quality.

I personally haven't noticed any significant differences between my various sources of TY CDRs bought between early 2004 and Q3 2007 (unbranded regular, unbranded white printable, unbranded silver printable, Verbatim pastel, Plextor).