rallisport challenge uses Safedisc 2.70.030

If by 1:1 you mean make a fully working copy, the answer is yes.

(There really isn't any such thing as a 1:1 copy of a copy protected cd though.)

thanks for the info. I was concerned because I dont know the highest version of safedisk I can copy with this drive.

LiteOn 24102B can even copy SD2.80.010.

How so?

'2-Sheep' (and 3-sheep?) burners are supposed to write regular bit patterns correctly, and I assume that they are supposedd to read them correctly, so how then that there is no such thing as a 1:1?

If the game runs from a backup, then isnt it a 1:1 (without emulation I mean).

If the original installs, runs and starts quickly, and the backups installs, runs and also starts quickly, then isnt that a 1:1?

And yeah I know, they are all basically the same question. Just wanted different scenarios.

anyone know the settings for this game with this burner?

I believe theres a sticky in the CloneCD forum

CloneCD Profiles for Download

There should be one titled (AWS off or NO AWS), use that one with the 24102B.

I just checked its titled 'SafeDisc (1/2/2.51) - no AWS'

@ CyByte
With your writer the default Game CD profile will work fine so long as you disable AWS from your writer settings sheet. If that seems too hard, just use the safedisc 2 no AWS profile from the profiles sticky.

@ Savannah
The fact that a copy installs and runs as well as the original does not make it 1:1. It just means that the guard module of the game/app has been defeated.

In the case of safedisc (all versions) unreadable sectors form part of the protection. Unreadable means just that. The duping app doesn't copy them. What it does is write its own unreadable garbage in their place. However, the bad sectors on the copy aren't the same as those on the original.

In the case of sd 2.8, info in the pre-gap is used as part of the protection and although a number of duping apps can copy sd 2.8 cds (with varying degrees of success) only discjuggler actually reads and writes the pre-gap. Alcohol, ccd and blindwrite only emulate it (on the burnt cdr/w itself). Those copies, although working just as well as the originals, are not 1:1 for that reason too.

In the case of Ring Protech (ProRing) whilst not difficult to copy successfully with ccd, the concept of a 1:1 is ridiculous. No-one would seriously believe that the duping app is going to cut a visible ring into the copy. What the duping app does is write ~3,200 consecutive unreadable sectors (the same number as are in the ring on the original) in place of the ring.

Of course, the fact that no copy is ever really 1:1 means that there is always the possibility that an update patch for a game/app will update the protection so that if the patch is applied copies previously made become useless.

Doesn't happen often but does happen. Examples are Neverwinter Nights 1.21 (protection upgraded so that no copies worked but problem for Bioware was that plenty of originals didn't work either) and Battlefield 1942 (originally sd 2.6 but protection upgraded by patch to sd 2.8 and copies made with version of ccd available at time of original release rendered useless).

Stand by for and watch what effect patches that upgrade safedisc to v2.9 have when that version (to be implemented shortly) begin to appear.

Ah, OK then, now I understand. Thanks

So a better backup is achieved with DiskJuggler then? Or will that backup work as well as a backup made with say, Alcohol.

To put it another way, if I backup NFS:HP2 (Safedisc 2.8) with Alcohol, it 'emulates' the pre-gap, then a patch is issue that updates it to SafeDisc 2.9, then only copies made with DiskJuggler will actually work?

Or am I wondering out of my wrong orifice?

No you're not.

At the moment an alcohol copy and a discjuggler copy of NFSHP2 (sd 2.8) will work equally well.

Whether that will be the case if a patch updates the protection to sd 2.9 remains to be seen. It will depend upon what changes are made to the protection and whether the physical structure and pre-gap info in the original is suitable for using the additional or upgraded protective measures.

(E.g. WCIII copies still work even though latest update patches alter securom protection to 4.8x because original WCIII cd does not have the physical characteristics necessary to enable it to use the nastiest aspects of securom 4.8x. Accordingly, although protection is now 4.8x, it's a weakened version as otherwise the originals wouldn't work.)

Depending upon what changes are made to safedisc in v 2.9, it may be that-

1. all existing copies will work after patching (unlikely as it appears that both alcohol and Lite-on writers are to be targeted specifically by this version),

2. the only copies that will work after patching are those made with discjuggler (and, possibly, discdump/fireburner since no-one seems to really know why ddump/fireburner copies work anyway or, if they do, I've not seen any persuasive explanation, only speculation), or

3. no existing copies will work after patching.

Of the three possibilities, I suspect that #2 is the most likely scenario but we'll just have to wait and see.

You should also note though that even if #2 turns out to be the case, it doesn't mean that dj will necessarily be able to copy new games/apps protected with sd 2.9 (e.g. dj can successfully copy WCIII but certainly can't copy any new securom 4.8x protected cd).

So, based on that, could one rightfully assume that its time to go and buy an Asus burner and keep the Lite-On for a secondary computer (with older games and so forth) and start using discdump/fireburner instead of Alcohol and the like? (Based on scenario 2)

If you wish to use CloneCD then you'll need an ASUS. The Litey will work with DD/FireBurner and Alcohol, perhaps Blindwrite as well. DiscJuggler will work for sure as well. I can get SD2.8 out of GameJack v3 on a Litey as well but the Alcohol developer writes its engine as well

I bet that Liteon will upgrade their FW should that be necessary in SD2.9

You can bet that each of alcohol, ccd and blindwrite will update their cloning methods too should it become necessary.

Thank you all, now that is a load off my mind

Is it only (so far) SD 2.8 that uses info in the pre-gap or does earlier versions do it as well. What I mean is, if I copy a SD 2.51 game with CloneCD and a Liteon 52x is there a risk that it won't work if patched to 2.9? Will it be better to use DJ to copy the game?

What are the correct settings in DJ for a SD 2.8 game and what minimum version of DJ is required.

Thanx

The information in the pre-gap is emulated, but since it's not checked in SD2.8 it is irrelevant at this point. What may happen is that SD2.9 will check the pre-gap and bzzzzt or an official patch to a 2.8 game will upgrade the prot and bzzzzt again. So, those working 2.8 backups may not work in the future.

What about earlier versions (2.70 and lower), can i SD update render our backups useless due to the pre-gap being emulated, or is the no data in the pre-gap on cd's with these versions?

Thanx

Right now, I don't know when the pregap feature was introduced, but we can find out.

Since Battlefield 1942 was released originally with sd 2.6 and ccd cpies made at time of release stopped working when patch upgraded protection to sd 2.8, it's reasonable to assume that copies of any game that was released with sd 2.6 or above are at risk.

@ petspeed

With current version of dj, first make sure that in Tools-> Options-> Verify that "Check CD data blocks with software generated EDC/ECC when reading in RAW mode" is unchecked.

Correct settings once you've done that are:

Read: Scan gaps/indices, Raw read, and Ignore read errors.
Write: Raw write.

Read and write speeds don't matter but you'll need luck if you use a Lite-on dvd or cdrw as the reader (but shouldn't have any problems if a recent model plex cdrw, tosh dvd or asus cdrw is used) and you must use a writer that doesn't need AWS, Bypass efm error or an equivalent (i.e. a recent model Lite-on, Asus or other 2 sheep writer or one of the 1 sheep plex or yammies that doesn't need AWS for sd 2.51+).

Don't know which is the earliest version of dj that can do it though as I'm new to dj myself.

So I guess that the discdump/fireburner combo for SafeDisc 2.6+ may not work then?

Y'know what I would really like? A program that will do it all. Not emulated and as close to 1:1 as possible. But it may take a while, so I guess Ill just have to have at least 4 different buring programs at hand. Oh well, in the end its all fun

Who knows, since no-one knows why ddump/fireburner combo works for sd 2.8 anyway?

Fireburner doesn't emulate the pre-gap, it just ignores any pre-gap info and writes its own.

So I am guessing my CloneCD w/cue sheet + FireBurner copies may be at risk too..

I don't like the sound of that

Oh well..

Cheers

I should mention here that, with the possible exception of the asus cdrws, the readers that can correctly read the pre-gap of sd 2.8 cds with discjuggler, unfortunately, are the same readers that tend to choke on twinsector (i.e. non-emulation) copies of securom 4.8x cds made with blindwrite or by using blackcheck's twinpeak tool.

How do I know if I was lucky? Since the current version of SD doesn't check the pre-gap just starting the game won't tell me. Is there a method to check whether the pre-gap was properly copied?

I'd rather like to have my cake and eat it too. SecuROM Cloning will get more sophisticated I have no doubt. Olli will come up with a one-button solution.